Ep. 66: Mastering the art of listening

Victoria Bethlehem | Chief People Officer, Jitjatjo

Get to know a company’s products and services; dig into the culture and processes—then get to know the people. This is the insightful advice from Victoria Bethlehem, Chief People Officer at Jitjatjo. On this episode, Victoria shares the lessons she’s learned from living in a country other than her country of origin—lessons that can be applied to professionals who work with teams in a global setting. 

Joining host Aaron Levy, Victoria discusses the importance of slowing down, being intentional, and listening to others to foster effective leadership. She emphasizes the need for adaptability and cultural sensitivity, particularly in fast-paced startup environments. This episode will help HR professionals who work with global teams learn practical ways to understand and encourage a workplace across cultural and geographical divides. 

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Answered on this Episode

• How does living abroad influence perspectives on people leadership?

• What role does accountability play in team management, and how can leaders enforce it?

• How can people professionals use impactful listening?

• Who should people pros speak to for understanding company culture?

Advice from Victoria

Balancing Speed with Thoughtfulness in Startups

In the fast-paced startup environment, there is often pressure to act quickly. A balanced approach involves taking the time to listen and understand core issues while simultaneously addressing low-hanging fruit that can bring immediate benefits. This method allows for thoughtful, strategic decision-making that aligns with the startup’s goals without compromising on speed.

Seeking to Understand Before Acting

New leaders should prioritize understanding their organization’s culture, people, and business operations before making significant changes. Spending time with employees at all levels and across departments helps gain a comprehensive view of the organization. This thorough understanding enables more informed and impactful decision-making.

The Importance of Cultural Sensitivity in Leadership

Working in different countries teaches the value of embracing cultural differences rather than trying to change them. By observing and experiencing various cultural norms, leaders can learn the importance of adaptability and being open to different perspectives. This approach enhances the ability to lead diverse teams effectively.

Connect with Victoria: LinkedIn

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Find This Conversation

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Full Transcript

Raising the Bar on Leadership | Victoria Bethlehem

[00:00:00] Aaron Levy: Today, we're thrilled to have Victoria Bethlehem on the show as a Chief People Officer of Jitjatjo. She's not only a seasoned HR leader, but also a true global citizen with over 25 years of experience. She spent the last four years in the startup environment, working closely with CEOs and founders to establish a global HR strategy and operations.

Her journey is a testament to adaptability, innovation, and stepping out of your comfort zone. I think the biggest lesson I learned in this conversation with Victoria is the importance of. Slowing down, being intentional, listening to others, and seeking to understand. And I hope if you take one thing out of this it's how you can move fast by first moving a little slowly.

Hope you enjoy the conversation as much as I did.

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Victoria. Thank you for making time and getting up bright and early. It is what time is it? Your time in Singapore, 5 30 AM, 

[00:00:54] Victoria Bethlehem: bright and early 5 

[00:00:55] Aaron Levy: 30 AM, bright and early. So, I was also up at 5 30 [00:01:00] AM, but I was not on a podcast AM. So, thank you for joining. Thank you for making the time. Before it's even light out by you, I appreciate it and grateful to have this conversation.

Oh, my pleasure, Aaron. And 

[00:01:10] Victoria Bethlehem: thank you for inviting me to be on your program, raise the bar on leadership. Happy to be here. 

[00:01:15] Aaron Levy: So, I guess the first place I'd start is I'd love to learn more about your background, but not your, life or history background, like this actual background behind you. It seems like you've got a lot of unique artwork.

[00:01:25] Victoria Bethlehem: Tell 

[00:01:26] Aaron Levy: me about 

[00:01:26] Victoria Bethlehem: it. Thank you. So actually, this background does kickstart a whole lot of conversations with people. So, I have two children. My daughter is 17. My son is 15. And when they were born, I decided that I wanted to have something that would commemorate every year of their life.

So behind me, I have 32 pieces of artwork, one for every year of their existence. And it's become a bit of a family tradition. So, every year they have to select one piece of artwork to put on the wall to commemorate that year of their [00:02:00] life. One side of the wall is my daughter, the other side of the wall is my son.

And I'm always asked, if the house was burning down, what would you save? These are very special to me. So that's the background.

[00:02:12] Aaron Levy: Damn. My wife is either going to be very happy or very unhappy because I have a blank canvas over here that just been calling for something and I think I know what I'm doing.

[00:02:25] Victoria Bethlehem: It's waiting 

[00:02:26] Aaron Levy: to be filled. Oliver hasn't hit his first year of life yet. So, I have five more months to figure out what that picture is going to be. I love, I freaking love that. So maybe let's talk about your background though. So, you've also not met your physical, but your work background, you've had a tremendous.

Amount of international work and you're not from Singapore, but you're in Singapore and you've it seems like you've had this very international work career. How did you get into that space? 

[00:02:58] Victoria Bethlehem: Yes. First of all, I [00:03:00] always knew I wanted to combine travel with work. So, I was always very open to mobility from a young age, and I think that when you put something out there, it has a way of finding you.

I've worked in the recruitment industry for over 20 years and working with two large multinationals, the world's largest and second largest obviously gave me a global landscape. To be able to navigate my career around and I took full advantage of that. Shall we say I put it out there in both organizations and they were very gracious to accept, my proposal to move abroad with them so that is what has led me to working in the United States in South Africa, in Australia, Switzerland, and now Singapore.

So, moving with those companies when I left the recruitment industry, which was about 5 years ago. And I joined the tech startup world. All of that has been based in [00:04:00] Singapore. However, they've been international firms, which have then required me to travel to various locations with them across Asia, Europe, and the United States.

So even though I haven't moved in the last seven years, I still travel quite a bit for those jobs. So that's how I've been able to keep my career going and also change my home address. 

[00:04:24] Aaron Levy: One of the things I'm super curious about as a people leader and a seasoned people leader, is how has that international experience, the varied cultures and the varied places you've lived and experiences you've had approach, how you think about people, management, cultural sensitivities and all of that, in your role as a people leader?

[00:04:41] Victoria Bethlehem: It's had a 

[00:04:42] Aaron Levy: huge 

[00:04:42] Victoria Bethlehem: impact. I've learned more. Through observing, through experiencing through osmosis, in these different cultural environments that I ever could have sitting in a classroom or reading a book. When you go from [00:05:00] being a majority to a minority, you learn a lot about yourself very quickly, because you're constantly being reminded that you are different and that you come from a different background, a different cultural norm, a different way of thinking, different way of living, a religion even the food that you eat at home, it's all different to wherever you're currently basing yourself.

And greatest thing that I've learned, and I say this to my kids all the time, is Embrace the differences, don't try to change those environments that you've gone into embrace the differences, look out for them, recognize them and embrace them because through that comes acceptance and a willingness to learn.

And I don't think we ever stop learning. And I take that into my work environment. I take that into my personal life that, that mindset of just always be open to learning. And when you are in different cultures, you're forced to learn. Because as I [00:06:00] said, most of the time you're a minority.

And you got to fit in, right? Otherwise, you get yourself into a whole lot of trouble emotionally, physically, spiritually. So certainly, being open embracing those differences understanding that there are other ways of approaching a situation, a life, a piece of work in that new environment that you're in.

All of those things I think are absolutely critical to survival, both in one's personal or professional life. So, these have been great lessons learned for me in all the years of living outside of my home country. 

[00:06:37] Aaron Levy: How do you apply those lessons to the teams that you lead in the organization, the different people who are in different spots who might not be feeling like an outsider, cause they're in the U S working in the U S, but they're working with people in Singapore and they're like what the heck, what's going on here?

How does your different learnings of embracing differences [00:07:00] influence the ways in which you support your team? 

[00:07:03] Victoria Bethlehem: Good question. I think the biggest takeaway from that experience and how I apply that when working with teams across the world is I regularly say there are many ways to get to Rome.

Right? There's my way. There's the idea that you might come up with. There's the idea that another team member might come up with. There are many ways. So, there isn't one way and there isn't necessarily always the best way. There are. A range of ways and it's about seeking that input from those that you're working with as to what do they think based on their experience, what do they know and collaborating on that again, and I think it depends on the activity that you're doing.

There are certain things. And times in one's role as a leader, where, we need to be highly instructive. If it's an urgent matter or if it's a compliance matter and there's a high-risk factor, you might not take the same collaborative approach. But if you're working on a new wellness program, for example [00:08:00] then 

there's an opportunity for lots of collaboration and input on that. I think that this cultural experience I've had of recognizing there are many different ways that you can approach something. I take that into these team environments, and really giving them the space to come up with ideas.

To own it, that's important to really own it and to be held accountable then for delivering on it. My role in those environments is really to be that support person to check in and to hold them accountable for being accountable.

[00:08:38] Aaron Levy: I'm putting my, feet in the shoes of head of people, a VP of people, a chief people officer who's recently joined a team that's. global, right? That has offices around the world. What's the one piece of advice that you'd give them or the first piece of advice that you'd give this person taking on new global role for the first time? [00:09:00] 

[00:09:00] Victoria Bethlehem: Seek first to understand in order to be understood. That would be my first piece of advice. And what I mean by that is get to know the lay of the land, understand the product or service that the company's doing. And really get under the hood. Demos, client visits, sitting in on team meetings of other departments to really understand the business.

Secondly, Talk to anyone and everyone. When I came on board, I didn't just meet with my peers at a senior leadership team and then their managers. I was talking to people from all parts of the organization, all departments, all levels of seniority. Various geographic locations just to get a sense of the culture and who we had in the organization.

So, I started with the product and I moved on to the people. Simultaneous to that, I was having loads of conversations with the CEO [00:10:00] to understand the short-, mid- and long-term vision and the strategy that had been put in place on how we would achieve those. And then once I'd really dug deep into those three or four areas, then I started on the HR department.

So, I didn't, I started wide and high, and then I funneled down. to focus that on my own portfolio. And with that, there was a lot of unpacking, a lot of questions, a lot of interviews, a lot of discussions in order to help me understand. And I think that when you have a deep level of understanding at that company level, at that people and cultural level, and then at your own department that you're running at that junction, you're in a position now to start making some decisions about the direction of the department.

You've been asked to lead and take forward. So, I go back to my opening statement seek first to understand in Order then to be understood because [00:11:00] with the first it enables you to deliver better on the second I believe 

[00:11:05] Aaron Levy: I love that. It's like the very first thing that we teach in any of our Boot camps with managers is the skill of listening and it is a skill and it's a practice and it's easy to start by talking, but it's much harder to practice listening and to truly hear others to do that.

And I just, it's such a powerful reminder. And then I'm hit with this other thought of this other voice in my head, which is Victoria, like I'm at a startup. We got to move fast. They brought me in because we're trying to grow. We're trying to do all this stuff. And. You're telling me to just take all this time to have all the I can't physically have all these conversations in a week.

This is a lot but I need to act and you're in the startup space. You're not just this, this people leader at multinational corporations, you're in these places that are dynamic startup world. So how do you marry that need for speed at a startup with the importance of understanding of learning before acting?

[00:11:57] Victoria Bethlehem: Here's what happens by asking a [00:12:00] lot of those questions. You unveil pretty quickly an understanding around what is the problem that the startup is trying to solve. And secondly, are we achieving that because that's what every startup is about. It's looking at a gap in the market, a problem that somebody else hasn't resolved, and it's trying to quickly get a product or service out to market that does exactly that.

And you're right. The pace, the challenges, the environment, I always say that working for a startup is like building a car whilst driving it. It's moving at rapid speed. Through doing what I was talking about earlier, spending time getting under the hood of that car, and understanding all the machinations, the people, the culture, the product, the challenges, you actually are very swiftly identifying where you are.

The problems are where the linkages are, but equally what's also working well. And I think that helps them direct you or [00:13:00] direct your focus on where you need to be spending your time because the worst thing you can be doing is working on areas that you think are important in the business, but everyone else is walking around going that's a nice to have, but it's not really helping us right now.

If you don't know where those precious pains and problems are. You're not going to be effective in your role. I would challenge what you said of, do you have time to do those interviews and say, you've got to make time to do those discussions because without that, how are you going to know where to focus?

[00:13:33] Aaron Levy: Yeah, I love that. And I think we do a lot of things that are often short sighted. We're trying to run without knowing where we're going. We're trying to build the car without having any idea of what kind of cars are electric, or is it gas, is it diesel? And I think, taking a moment to say, what kind of car are we building?

Even for a moment helps to build the car in a more effective way. So, I think it's a powerful message. And I guess one of the things I'm curious about is where did you learn that patience? [00:14:00] Where did that come from to say, you know what, I need to take this because it's so easy to want to prove value when day one of your job Yeah.

Where'd you learn that 

patience 

[00:14:08] Victoria Bethlehem: by making lots of mistakes by rushing into things in the past and realizing that I had to, quickly change my route because I wasn't focusing on the right things. Oh gosh. The learning, the life learnings are endless. Raising two teenagers is also, I would throw that into the mix of developing patience, all of those things.

I think that's. It's with the benefit of time and reflection that whole thing of, do a few things really well rather than a lot of things very average. So, this is where I think my maturity is kicking in here and making me really understand the importance of focusing on the right things at the right time.

I've got to add though, Aaron, that, when you talk to people and you really unearth, particularly, being in an HR [00:15:00] role where the problems are, you identify low hanging fruit. And I'm not saying that I came on board and spent three months not taking any actions. When you identify the low hanging fruit, you can work on those simultaneous to building up your your IP on the business and the team, the culture and the strategy.

And I was doing those things along the way as well. People were saying, Oh, okay, she's made this decision or she's implemented that and those things were quick and dirty fixes that had an impact and that were reasonably easy to resolve. It's the mid to long term stuff that these discussions up front really help you set up.

The right identification and then the appropriate solution.

[00:15:49] Aaron Levy: Okay. So, I really liked that. Cause it's okay. I'm listening. I'm on this listening tour. I'm seeking to understand as I'm doing that, I'm identifying themes and challenges and areas of the business that like we need to be strategic [00:16:00] about and make intentional choices. And I'm not going to start making those choices in week one or week two.

I need to get a fuller picture and there's some small little things., as soon as I took over the role. I went into the room where people were interviewing and I went into the lobby that people would come to our company to interview at and saw the posters that were up and saw just the way the room was.

And it was unappealing and it was a little sexist and like it just wasn't the best vibe of what we wanted to be representing. And so immediately I went and changed the picture, changed the artwork, changed the flow of the room., that helped us in our recruiting and our hiring efforts right away.

And so, I love that simplicity of what you're saying is don't just listen blindly, right? Listen, take thoughts, be intentional, but also if there's something there that you can make a change that's not a massive overhaul, do it. Yes. Do it. It's going to make a difference. If 

[00:16:51] Victoria Bethlehem: you do enough of those kinds of small things, you can make a really big impact

 for sure.

[00:16:57] Aaron Levy: There's so much more I want to explore here. And I think [00:17:00] there's also something beautiful about the simplicity of what you're sharing that I. Don't even want to tarnish it. I think it's such an important message, I just see it too often of this fast-paced environment and the fact that you've been in this fast-paced environment so many times over and what you're telling us is, Listen, understand we've learned from mistakes.

Let's not make that mistake again. And so, let's spend some time to listen. And so, I think I'm just super grateful for that lesson. And I'm going to let it sink in. I'm going to let it sink in for me and other people, because it's a powerful message to share. 

[00:17:32] Victoria Bethlehem: Happy to share. Thank you.

[00:17:35] Aaron Levy: Thank you for coming on. Thank you for giving your morning. And this was just a wonderful conversation. 

[00:17:39] Victoria Bethlehem: You're welcome, Aaron. It's great to connect with you as always and keep going with these podcasts. They're great. I love hearing your guests and I'm very happy to have been one today.